Reflections on the Great Experiment: An interview with Rebecca
Hagelin

By Helen and Peter Evans
web posted May 31, 2004

Rebecca Hagelin is a vice president of the Heritage Foundation,
a research and educational think-tank whose mission is to
formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the
principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual
freedom, traditional American values and a strong national
defense. She is also the former vice president of communications
for WorldNetDaily and her 60-second radio commentaries can
be heard on the Salem Communications Network.

Peter: Tell us your understanding of the Great Experiment, stating
some of the strengths and weaknesses..

Rebecca: I guess the foundation of the Great Experiment is
something I don't think enough people reflect upon. The
foundation is that there are truths that are self-evident in the
world and in morality. There is a higher level of truth that
shouldn't be open for debate. These truths were so eloquently
pointed to in the Declaration of Independence. "All men are
endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, among
them are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". Self evident
truths, not up for debate, not up for discussion. Our Founding
Fathers penned those words years ago and now we jump
forward to where we are today. I look at the family which has
been the basic unit of every single society since the beginning of
time starting with the marriage between a man and a woman. It's
a self-evident truth that a man and a woman is the proper place
to begin a family and to raise children. So when we talk about
the weaknesses of the system, the experiment; it's not in the
system that was developed by a Divine power and recognized
by the Founding Fathers. The weaknesses are in the fact that our
current society has lost sight of basic self-evident truths.

The right to life should be self evident. Mothers shouldn't kill their
young. It's right for a society to try to protect the vulnerable. The
whole aspect of God, the central aspect of God is that he gave
man free will and freedom. Yet the government today has
ignored that self evident truth. How can you create happiness for
yourself and your family if you have a government which has so
many restrictions to your freedom, restrictions on your family, on
your behavior and your free will. It's just astounding that the
weaknesses occur from the incredible lack of knowledge, not
just a lack of understanding, but a lack of knowledge about what
the Great Experiment was and about what the founding was
about.

Helen: Yes, for instance, a few months ago someone suggested
we debate the idea of liberating Iraq based on the idea of
national sovereignty vs. the freedom of the individual. We
suggested debate was not necessary because all you had to do
was look to the first basic truths. Let's take liberty. It's not there
for the Iraqi people so that trumps national sovereignty. Basic
truths trump any governmental laws. Even if we go back to our
own problems with states rights vs. racial integration such as at
Old Miss in the 60's. Individual sovereignty, or rights Divinely
bestowed, always trumps man made laws. Instead government
rules or laws should be to protect those Divinely given rights.
Therefore, there should be no big debate about it.

Rebecca: Right. the weaknesses in our system are not the
system. The weaknesses are those that distorted the brilliance of
the system. The documents and the processes that were put into
place to protect the ideas in those documents are pure brilliance.
Now in this day, we have instead of checks and balances,
judicial activists who are going crazy from the bench. That's an
abuse of constitutional power. Yet we're finding that most
Americans don't even know that, don't even know about the
separation of governmental powers. So how can you raise up the
populace to demand constitutional checks and balances when
they don't even know it exists.

Helen: This is why we're writing this book. Many people see
some actions taken unconstitutionally and instead wonder if this
isn't for the good of everyone. But what happens when you take
it to the next step, who is the power that decides what's good for
the individual; just one or two people?

Rebecca: Right and when you think about it the Great
Experiment was new to civilization and Russell Kirk's book, The
Roots of American Order, explains it best. He explains that the
best concepts from the ancient civilized world were all pulled
together brilliantly by our Founding Father. Our Founding
Fathers were not coming in a vacuum to create a new country.
They were learned people, they studied, they observed what
works in great empires that existed throughout time and if they
violated basic truths they also knew what would happen. All that
knowledge came together through Divine Inspiration to those
few dozen people and our country came to be. The Great
Experiment was, I think, to find out if mankind could live by
those Divine self evident truths.

Helen: So you see the Great Experiment not just for America but
for civilization as a whole?

Rebecca: I see America as the culmination of alot of great ideas
since the beginning of mankind. The Great Experiment asks you
to study history and learn by it. Let's look back at the Boston
Tea Party. It wasn't that the tax was so high because tea was
actually taxed less than other products. What they were revolting
against was that it would give England a monopoly on the tea
trade. In other words people could not longer buy tea from
wherever they wanted. Something as simple as not being able to
choose who you buy your tea; that loss of freedom of choice
caused them to revolt. Now look around today and realize how
many restrictions we've become accustomed to.

Helen: What would you say to people who say life would be
easier letting someone else make a choice for me? In fact, many
may say just accepting what comes along causes less trouble.
Why shouldn't I just go along with whatever "they" say.

Rebecca: It's easier to force someone to do your work for you
too. It's easier to enslave another human being. The easy way is
often the wrong way. When you get down to the simple truths
and add things like personal responsibility and personal
accountability you get the idea of liberty. Of course, in our
country we have ordered liberty. It's like a train which can go
wherever it does as long as there are tracks for it to travel. Even
God who gave us free will also allows that there are
consequences for our actions. Everyone is accountable at the
end of the day.

Peter: The law of cause and effect in a way. It seems to me that
the Founding Fathers wrote down what they understood to be
God's will. An ambitious project to be sure.

Rebecca: Not only ambitious but when you think about brilliant
minds of those who participated in the Founding; men from
varied backgrounds, men very accomplished in many fields; it's
astounding that so many came together at that particular time in
history. There had to be a Divine order and inspiration there. At
the constitutional convention during a critical point when they
were frustrated and about to disband without accomplishing their
goal, Benjamin Franklin stood up and said "we've got to pray. if
God knows about every sparrow that falls from the air, is it
possible that a country could rise without HIs aid?"

Helen: Our society has become secularized. People have a
misconception about the separation of church and state.

Rebecca: It never existed as it is interpreted today. The First
Amendment was to protect churches from the government.

Helen: I'll try to segue way into the idea of freedom and liberty.
The idea of self government has also been distorted. It's not
license to do anything, but the opportunity to "self-govern"
yourself and that means responsibility and restraints self imposed.
What does self-governing mean to people?

Rebecca: That's what I tried to teach my children. I home
schooled my children for 5 years because I wanted them to
really understand some basic principles about history and about
life. The mantra we said was over and over again and which was
chalked on the blackboard of our little home school room was,
"remember the principle of self government". If you are
responsible for yourself and if you accomplish those things which
have been laid before you, if you learn how to do your
homework on time, if you learn to do excellence in your work,
then I don't have to be the policeman to stand over you. But if
you violate that, if you violate basic principles, then you have to
have the police. Laws are not created for the good people, they
are created for those that don't respect liberty.

Helen: What's your definition of freedom and liberty?

Rebecca: The term that comes to mind is ordered liberty.
Freedom without order is chaos and the only way to have
complete freedom and liberty is to have order associated with it.

Peter: It's a paradox then.

Rebecca: It's a paradox, but I think it's just something that our
poor feeble minds are unable to understand. We have certain
words that we've created that define certain items, but there are
also elements of life that don't fit perfectly into that vocabulary.
Just look at the classifications of animals or fruits and vegetables,
someone came up with names to classify them, but something
will be discovered which doesn't fit exactly into the
classifications. So because our brains are limited we do the best
we can, most times, but there are higher laws and principles such
as liberty, order that we're still trying to fully understand. Total
freedom would be chaos.

Helen: We think of it as freedom of choice. I can't be in 2 places
at the same time. If I could that would be total freedom, but we
have limitations of physical existence.

Peter: In order to live in the world practically we have to take the
practical knowledge and definition of those words. So it doesn't
really matter what the essence of the definition of liberty or
freedom is since it must be expressed through our physical
reality.

Helen: Isn't this perfect. Too many people have a snap answer
for the definition of freedom. However, if we contemplate the
meaning, if we study and do some work or even pray; we begin
to know it rather than repeat what we've heard.

Rebecca: Absolutely, because consequences are a fact of a free
life too. That is something that becomes self evident. Whether it's
the law that's the consequence or whether you die after you go
screaming down the street in sub zero weather while naked.
Because there are consequences for every choice, order is part
of freedom.

Helen: Yet, none of these ideas are incomprehensible. But we do
have to be engaged in our own lives, we have to think for
ourselves.

Rebecca: No concept or truth lives in a vacuum. 

Peter: It seems to me the systematic weaknesses we're
discussing is a consequence of success. Without history without
the foundational ideas many people think the purpose of
government is to insulate them from the consequences of their
actions. In other words, they don't want government to interfere
with the pursuit of happiness, but they do want government to
interfere with the occurrence of sadness. This is partly because
the Experiment has been so successful. For instance, many
people have not had the experience of say a trivial example, of
bed bugs. We can't even imagine what it would be like to not be
able to own a car, our own home.

Rebecca: Also, some feel that if they haven't chosen to work for
it themselves, someone should give it to them.

Peter: I blame the government squarely for that particular
attitude. That's how folks are bought with taxpayers money.

Helen: So when government comes in and helps people for more
than the momentary ups and downs in life, we forget not only the
purpose of government but what the purpose of life is. Our
accountability and creativity are thrown out the window. We
sometimes feel that we don't have to work for any higher
purpose than ourselves, our own happiness. Do you feel that's
one of the misconceptions other people in the world have about
Americans?

Rebecca; Yes, there is a conception that we're selfish and self-
indulgent. I must admit there is a segment of our society where,
"It's my job, my career, my body, my right, my, my, my and
more my. I'm going to do it my way, you owe me and if nothing
else you've got to give it to me". Plus just about everything we
export in the media overseas doesn't represent what are
principles are.

Helen: As we talk about this misconception of self indulgence,
there is a certain segment of our society that is like that.
However, you've also been exposed to people who live by other
principles. Can you tell us about them?

Rebecca: My life has been filled with examples of personal
sacrifice, starting with the examples of my parents and people in
church. My father was a pediatrician and he would go on
medical mission trips to Nicaragua just because it was important
to him personally to help other people. He also held kidney
clinics and various other clinics on his Thursday afternoons which
should have been his time off. So I grew up living with examples
of my parents who gave out of their good graces and abundance.
Their examples were a good life and hard work. It was second
nature in my life. The church I went to gave to the unfortunate. It
was an alien concept that people didn't behave like that. We can
also see examples all around us. The volunteer military,
government leaders who have to give up personal fortunes when
they take office. My husband is also military and self sacrifice is a
part of my life.

Helen: Can you even understand those who say no one does
anything good without some payback?

Rebecca: Well both worlds do exist. It's just that we have
become such an affluent society and so many generations take it
for granted. I think there have been 2 basic types of people
throughout history; those that do and those that won't do; those
that give and those that take. People who pursue happiness and
are willing to work for it and those who demand to be made
happy. It's just part of human nature. But what's different about
America is that the people who came here to begin it by far
knew they would have to work for their happiness. It was a new
idea in mankind and that idea drew the people who believed in it.
There is still that wonderful remnant of that attitude and we have
to grow it.

Peter: It seems to me the people who still come here are looking
for the opportunities, but there are alot who have grown up here
who are more complacent.

Rebecca: It's interesting to draw some parallels from the
establishment of Israel back in 1949. The younger generations
don't realize that it wasn't there always. To them it's always been
a nation. So there is a grave concern among some older Israeli's
that the younger generation doesn't understand, even though they
are embattled every day. Jump now over to the United States
and realize there is the same attitude from much of the younger
generation. This country has been around for 200 years, but
every single day a price has to be paid for our freedom. Some
don't even realize why we are fighting in Iraq.

Helen: 12 years is a long time in a life only 20 years old. Many of
them aren't even aware of the first Gulf War.

Rebecca: I can remember a defining moment in my life when as a
young adult when I saw a movie and if I struggle hard enough I
might be able to remember it. But it was about Communists
coming through Mexico and taking over the southern and
western parts of the US. I remember thinking it was such a silly
movie, after all we're the United States. However, as the years
went on I realized something like that could happen. I also see a
strange behavior of many people over here who want absolute
freedom and yet think we're imposing our will on Iraq. They
don't realize we're helping an oppressed population and that the
people who oppress them could come over here and cause
trouble for us and our freedom. The disconnect is amazing to me.
They enjoy and even demand their rights but they don't want
other human beings to have the same rights.

Helen: There seems to be something that happened to our
society within the past 40 years. Instead of the individual doing
something themselves they hook up with a group or an
organization that does something. Then the individual takes credit
for it. For instance, someone's church may give to the poor and
the individual may take credit for the generosity even though they
themselves don't even contribute to the church. It's almost virtue
by association. Or the government should provide benefits and
as long as I agree with that sentiment therefore I am
compassionate. All one needs to do is agree rather than do. It
wipes away personal responsibility or accountability.

Rebecca: So much has been lost for the individual. And although
we talk about the kids today, I wrote a column about this, it's the
adults today that are the real problem; not the kids. The media,
the pornography, the dumbing down in education, the garbage
that's thrown at our children everyday is the responsibility of the
adults. You don't have 5 or 10 year olds producing trash movies.
You don't have a 6 year old deciding what should be taught to
him in his history class. The adults have failed.

Peter: So does that shift the responsibility back just one
generation?

Rebecca: I think it's creep. It's a slow process just as the frog in
the pot of water that eventually boils him alive. A little bit more
affluence, a little bit more expectations and a little bit more
government answering our problems and what you see is the
hand of government everywhere.

Peter: Why do you think the creep is creeping. Is it something
that's built into the system.

Rebecca: I hate to make it so simplistic, but it's the very same
problem that existed since mankind was created in the garden of
Eden. It's the voice saying "you can do what you want, you can
be all knowing and all powerful, you can demand anything, you
want to eat the apple, eat it. It goes all the way back to the first
idea of free will. Go gave us the most powerful thing that exists:
free will. We were given the opportunity to determine our
destiny, but consequences were clearly outlined. So when
mankind doesn't submit to a higher authority, we don't have
ordered freedom.

Peter: That has certainly been emphasized by the success and
authority of the physical sciences. You even see bumper stickers
that say "question authority". To some that bumper sticker means
listen to the snake, listen to the material world.

Helen: How did you teach your children about authority,
freedom and patriotism?

Rebecca: Mostly by example, I wake up every morning as a
Mom thinking, "How I'm going to protect my kids?" I do that by
instilling in them the values I have. I know good kids and good
families who will go to the video store and because of what I
called the garden syndrome, when the kids ask to rent a movie
they shouldn't see, they get it. It's rationalized by "Just this one
time", or "They're going to see it anyway". Mom's give into it all
the time. However, I think, "Hello, I'm Mamma, not you. You
are my child and I'm responsible for you and your life choices, at
least at this time in your life. I'm responsible for putting my values
in front of you every single day and every single moment. The
price of liberty is eternal vigilance and it's necessary in family life
also.

Helen: So you're not trying to be a friend?

Rebecca: I don't think one is exclusive of the other. If I'm their
best friend, I'm going to protect them, I'll tell them "garbage in,
garbage out." If you consume too much garbage one day you'll
act like garbage, do you really want to be that way? That's a
friend. A friend reminds you if you learn a good work ethic you
can be successful and you could even take care of other people.
If you think of other people too you can have a sense of what's
important and realize it's not just materialistic. I'm not a good
friend if I don't tell them those things!

So I think alot of our problems start with real parenting and also
for all of us to get back to the real basics. We don't have to get
complex in the way we live our lives. Basics such as manners,
sharing, caring, being honest. It's not difficult or complex. There
sure are complex situations, where you need wisdom to make
the right choice. However, if your decisions are based on firm,
basic values you will make the right choice. Principles first.

Helen: I grew up with people saying my word is my bond.

Rebecca: Yes, our society allows us to "change our mind", if it's
not in writing we don't have to be responsible for our word. But
for people who live by principles first contracts aren't necessary
and we don't change our mind like the wind. Life is much more
simple when we live by first principles.

Helen: We don't have to be complex, but we do have to be
engaged in our lives, we have to find those first principles and
know them in our hearts. If we take time to contemplate and
reflect we find that we do know the right thing to do, we know
when something is wrong. It's innate within us. Sure it's good to
study, to know what the Founding Fathers did and why, but
ultimately that's not really necessary.

Rebecca: What study does is to help you build your arguments,
but the basics are in the heart of all people. The basics can be
distorted and we have to be careful of that. Frances Shaeffer and
C. S. Lewis wrote alot about the basic truths that exist within all
mankind, all cultures. For instance, in every culture it's wrong to
betray someone. If we compromise on the basic foundations, all
else will crumble eventually.

Helen: So what would you tell the average person about how to
become more involved in the Great Experiment?

Rebecca: I think a light bulb goes off in alot of people's minds
when we talk about the Founding Fathers and reflect about what
they did. There are actually Biblical principles in our Founding
documents. Study those founding documents and understand
how great they are. That's long term. More simply, let's just go
to the Golden Rule. For instance, you encounter someone on the
street and ask them what they want someone to do for them.
After they give you the list, ask them what they are doing for
someone else.

Plus most of us everyday are in constant denial of our own
mortality. How many people live this day, this moment as though
they are going to meet their Creator in 5 minutes. One of the
basics is, "you were born and you will die". How many people
think about that? How many people try to do their best every
single moment? How many wonder why they are here?

Peter: Why questions are the tough ones, physical science can
tell us all the how's but not the why's. That's up to us.

Rebecca: Political correctness has stifled some of our answers.
Answers to these questions require judgment and discrimination.
PC wants to outlaw judgments. Also, by never getting to the
answer, it absolves us of actually taking action.

Helen: We were very impressed by your article, The Sobering
Cost of War. We'll quote just the first line here: "Guys, chances
are, someday you will go to war."

These were the sobering words my husband, Andy, spoke to
our sons within days after that fateful September morning now
known as 9-11. Our family was seated around the kitchen table
where we so often laugh, argue and discuss both the mundane
and memorable events of daily life.

My family, including both of our sons who are now ages 16 and
14, are ready to defend America and freedom at all costs. It is a
sickening feeling for a mother to watch the days go by and know
that the time is ever closer when her baby may have to go to
war.

Mothers and fathers all across the country are grieving the deaths
of their brave sons and daughters who continue the war against
terrorism, now being fought largely in Iraq. But as in every war
for freedom, the ultimate prize is worth fighting, and even dying
for.

Can you tell us more about your feelings of sending your sons to
war?

Rebecca: It's been said before, if something is worth living for,
it's worth dying for. Let's go back to our denial of our own
mortality. We're all going to die and dying for a noble cause,
such as liberating the people of Iraq and protecting our homeland
is a noble cause. I'm reminded of a story of a 99 year old man
dying alone without having achieved much in his life. Wouldn't it
be better to die a noble death than to die of nothing at all.

Peter and Helen: Thank you very much, Rebecca. We're sure
many will be inspired by your words and by your family's
example.

Peter and Helen Evans is a husband and wife team who are
freelance writers and speakers and teach a philosophical
approach to conservatism. They are also real estate agents in the
Washington, DC area.

Enter Stage Right -- http://www.enterstageright.com